wanting...

[thoreau]

“How many of you have ever started dating because you were too lazy to commit suicide?” - Judy Tenuta

---

While it really feels great to be free of the emotional sadism I put myself through this past spring - I really hate dating.

I hate it a lot. I've been working on with my therapist (and a couple of fellow LJers have pointed out along the way) is that I always dream of what kind of man I want - but rarely discuss - who do I want to be in a relationship or when I'm 'dating' someone. I have the long laundry list of dream guy stats and hobbies and passions. But one of the errors I've made in dating and in my relationships - is that I tend to put (insertboyfriendhere) first - and not stand up for what I want, what I need and what I deserve. I let behavior slide with (insertboyfriendhere) because he's charming - or he makes me laugh - or he loves to fuck at 2am. So when he (insertcrappybehaviorhere) I let it slide, or when he (insertinappropriatesexualbehaviorhere) or he (insertpassiveaggressivehorsehithere) - I take it like a sponge rather than spraying myself with nonstick spray and handing it right back to (insertboyfriendhere) and saying - "that's unaccepteable behavior or sexual activity or thats not being sensitive to my feelings - thank you - and I deserve better, please try again."

I was dating a guy for a while after Memorial Day who kept our activities limited to a single night a week - and well - he required a lot of pot and poppers to have sex. and I caught myself after the fourth or fifth week of this doing two things. One - being pissed that he needs poppers and pot to fuck - Two - wondering why (particularly since the weightloss) he had to alter himself to fuck me. And finally - he emailed me one day and basically said - that I needed to talk less and pleasure him more during sex. and I wrote him back and said that I thought we weren't compatible and he should find someone else to be with. He got VERY upset and wrote me back and said that he thought I found his bold (pot filled and popper induced) sexuality intimidating. I wrote him back and told him - that as a 41 year old man - he should learn to take NO for an answer. It felt liberating - but I also let go of the only real sexual buddy in my life right now. and thats a little lonely. (because I love me some sex)

I decided after the encounter with Rick (the ex) and John (his new "life partner") at Blow Buddies back in July - that the sexclub scene was feeling like squandering my body for strangers. SO I've stopped going there - a) because I realized that I'd romanticized going there with Rick - because we always had our hottest sex after coming home from the sex club. But who deserves a boyfriend that needs to go to the sex club and have sex with strangers for several hours before they can have the hottest sex with their boyfriend? not me. I deserve much better than that. and b) this past spring - when I went alone to Blow Buddies I got a case of UberCrabs that required shaving sections of my body to get rid of. I'm a super hairy little man - and well - crabs are the worst of the worst. so -So I've crossed Blow Buddies off the list.

Right now I'm feeling spectacularly unsexual - or undesired sexually.

So I joined Manhunt.net - which is all about the sex. and I had a intensely hot - "come over and blow me?" time last night. and in the 48 hours or so I'm on manhunt - i've had several guys "find" me there. but I know - like all new meat - in real time or not,,, that the interest will eventually fade. but - it's created a sexual outlet without feeling like I'm sticking my dick through a glory hole (figuratively or literally).

I also have suddenly become desirable by "leather Daddy" types that are visiting and want a guy to fuck while they are in town. Now - I loves me a bearded, hairy leather man more than anything else. and one or two of these encounters in their hotel room - or once overnight in my home - have been REALLY hot. these boys are hungry to fuck after a boring conference or time here with family. but they pack up and go back to their boy at home - or their country - or whatever. leaving me - to really KNOW what it means to be wanted that way. to be courted, sought after and REALLY fucked. A couple of these encounters have included spending days together in museums, walking in golden gate park - or even going on day trips together. but they still - get on the plane and head back home afterwards.

Patience for a man like that in my life all the time is a hard struggle for me. particularly since locally - I don't tend to find men like that to date. My out of town buds that visit are usually overwhelming bed partners and really interested in things. I laughed with a friend that it's my new marketing strategy for the book - if you are from out of town, come here and fuck my ass and then I'll take you the bookstore to buy my novel before the glow of being inside me wears off. (laughing out loud) I can see the personals ad now:

Furry bottom first time author will let you fuck him if you buy his novel.

I am in such a different time in my life - and in a different city with a different "vibe". Moving to San Francisco has changed my entire perspective - as has the entire 'experience' of my romantic stumble when I moved here. People here do things a lot differently - I don't remember dating and sex being so goddamned complicated.

It's part of having been in a relationship right out fo the closet for two years - then single for about 9 months - and into the 11 years with Jon - then a year and a half single in Boise - then meeting Rick and 'dating' him for a year. I guess part of it - is that I haven't done a lot of time single. I mean out of the last 18 years out of the closet - I've been single only three years of that entire timespan. So - my 'understanding' of things comes from the point of view of being partnered (and finding that comfortable and my 'comfort zone'). But in a city where most (if not all) gay relationships are open; so a lot of guys you meet have partners already. (even if they don't admit it till the 2nd or 3rd date) -- a city where there is quite real barriers between HIV+ guys and HIV- guys. I never thought in SF I'd get the "You are really hot - but I can't/won't get emotionally involved with someone positive"

While it's a world-class city for food, for art, for outdoorysness, for allllll sorts of things - it's romantic dating life for me so far - has been a real mixed bag.

Back when I talked about relationships - the ever inquisitive excessor posed a series of questions.

1. Is infatuation required for a relationship?
2. What does romance mean to you in a relationship? What does it mean outside a relationship?
3. What's the difference between friends, friends with benefits, tricks, one-nighters, boyfriends, and partners?
4. What is love?
5. Is love necessary for a partnership?
6. Is sex necessary for a partnership?
7. What is a good fight? What is a bad fight?
8. Does good sex = relationship?

and I've been posing these questions to myself in my handwrittendamnedifanyonereadsthisbutme^tm journal.

It has been quite the set of thought puzzles. I always get accused of being too romantic - that I could romanticize taking out the garbage. I always get in trouble when I romanticize friendships - because then I get accused of making them TOO important - and treating friends like others might treat a lover. I have trouble with casual sex - but I love sex so much that I have it anyway. I feel that perhaps I have too high of an expectation set on the role of hot sex in a relationship. I don't think it's to be unexpected that sex gets hotter when you love someone and it's a communication of your love for that person. I don't think I should expect a relationship to go sexless after a "few years" and HAVE to open it up so we can be happy. What is "good sex" in the context of a relationship or dating?

I know - I'm overthinking. but hey - it's what I do.

Comments

[trulygrateful.livejournal.com]

As long as you are able to come to some sort of answer or answers - eventually - then it could never be thought of as overthinking.

Continually pondering but taking no action.... well... there's a great example of someone who should perhaps think a little less and just go with it.

Hang in there.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

thanks love :)

[bootedintexas.livejournal.com]

wasnt you who scored in the feeling part of the personality test, and it was me who does all the thinking....? (WINK)

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

ah - :) thats what I'm doing wrong.

[bootedintexas.livejournal.com]

actually i dont know if there is a "wrong" or "right" when it comes to emotions. We all face flux when we arent in our known comfort zone, for you...your zone has always been "i have a husband". its like snoopy stealing Linus's blanket. there is an inner struggle when the blanket isnt there to keep your happiness in balance.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

the problem Drew? is that these have been relationships where I didn't stand up for myself - and let the other run ruffshod over my emotions, my needs and I just sat there and let them do it. so it's like i've always relied on a false sense of security in relationships that weren't very healthy.

[badfaggot.livejournal.com]

the sexclub scene was feeling like squandering my body for strangers.

If you hate dating but keep doing it in order to secure sex, is that any different from your being at Blow Buddies? Any less "casual"?

I don't mean this to sound accusatory -- I have never taken much pleasure in sex clubs or profile sites myself. You're absolutely right when you say you deserve the respect of your sex partners, and right to observe that you're not guaranteed (or perhaps even likely) to find it in these places. But are you modeling that respect (for others as well as for yourself) when you repeatedly do something you dislike in order to achieve the same unsatisfactory result?

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

you make a real good point - there really is very little difference between hooking up off a site and heading to blow buddies. well - there is. Blow Buddies is a disgusting place - and I feel dirty going there. I know I run the same risk of getting crabs from a play date. (or other things)

But - I'm a sexual guy - and the kind of sex I'm having now is going to please and feed that side of my person until i can find someone to date and explore further/deeper. Trying to deny myself actual sexual contact (and just beat off?) feels like I"m punishing and denying myself. I'm very much a person that needs someone else there to truly be sexual rather than just "get off".

Thanks for your note. It's a tough balance between what you know you deserve and SHOULD be getting - and what you decide is okay until you get what you deserve. and it's also easy to lose sight of goals nad just get mired down in quick, easy and casual sex.

[badfaggot.livejournal.com]

you make a real good point - there really is very little difference between hooking up off a site and heading to blow buddies.

Actually, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was that, however you secure it -- whether it's via bathhouses or chat rooms or long walks through the park -- you're doing things that you don't like in order to have sex that isn't meeting your needs.

I love sex, too. I value my sex so much that a few years back I decided that I wasn't going to continue to engage in behaviors I disliked in order to have sex that I knew wouldn't be satisfying. I anticipated that in making decision I would likely have less sex, which has been true. But the sex I have now entails mutual respect, trust and enjoyment, and has enabled me to go to places sexually (yes, even solo) that I would not have been able to otherwise.

I concede that this strategy is not for everyone. Looking at others in my life, I sometimes feel as though I am denying myself overmuch. But I also know that what is healthy for someone else is not necessarily right for me. If I feed my libido junk, my whole person feels like crap -- I'm getting neither what I need nor what I deserve. When I allow my libido to be nourished, on the other hand, I know that I am succeeding in getting both.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

thanks for clarifying - I don't want to be a libidojunky either. (sigh) I wish it was easier - but it's not.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

What's teasing at me in reading this thread (and I agree with Matt's original observation) is some kind of analogy to comfort foods that are not really that nutritious. Being that you and I have both been doing WW lately.

I was always afraid of letting the (real) pleasure of sexual release in "casual" sex (bathhouses, hookup sites) get in the way of the (real, and eventually more satisfying) pleasure of sex that was more emotionally connected. I used to worry that I was hung up about that, but the older I get, the more I understand that I've made the right choices for me.

Sweetie, I know you love to be with another person to have really wonderful sex, but .... have you ever tried dating yourself, all the way through to a great orgasm? I mean, if you made a wonderful dinner and a romantic film and then just touched yourself and gave yourself an orgasm that was more than just "getting yourself off" ... if you really framed it as an act of love ... is that something you do?

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

it is something I do - I'm a pro at loving myself and have done LOTS of revisiting it during the last few months. it was one of the first 'weekly gifts' my therapist asked me to give myself - was a date night with myself. (i usually end up in a hot bubble bath with permastiffy)

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

I was rereading this thread - as I was reminded of it elsewhere on LJ - and I love your WW analogy. You are the best Pete!

[althrman.livejournal.com]

Smart...Man..

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

this reply has really resonated with me. Thanks so much Matt. :) I owe you giant sized hug one day.... it's given me so much to think about. as I re-assess the role of sex in my life.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

a boyfriend that needs to go to the sex club and have sex with strangers for several hours before they can have the hottest sex with their boyfriend? not me. I deserve much better than that.

I admit, hon, I still don't know what to say sometimes because I think I read you differently than you mean it. I read the above and it sounds as if you feel that that kind of life would be wrong and bad. I think it would be "wrong and bad" for YOU ... partly because your needs are different, but partly because your judgments about what constitutes "real" love and commitment are so ... I dunno, universalized, rather than specific.

You don't *ever* seem to phrase these things as "I am Robert and here's what works for me." You phrase them as "This is what's real love, this is what's good sex, I deserve better." In some sense, it's not about YOU in such a phrasing, it's not about you standing up for yourself and your unique needs .... not "I want X" but "X is better, so X is what I deserve."

Do you hear how, in a strange way, your phrasing of your own needs is decentered from being about YOU?

What I hear in your statement above is that the hottest sex *isn't* hot if you're aware that your man worked himself up to it with others--or, in the other example you give in this post, if he worked himself up to it with drugs. It is tending toward a statement that "I am Robert and I need to be the first, maybe the only, sex partner, and the only inspiration and motivation for my partner's passion, in order to feel satisfied; something else is a problem for me" .... but how it comes out is "Such and such is better."

That said, I think Paul's questions are wonderful and you should keep thinking about them.

I don't think I should expect a relationship to go sexless after a "few years" and HAVE to open it up so we can be happy.

Here, I think you're not so much overthinking, as putting the cart before the horse. You're not in a relationship of "a few years," so it seems pointless to worry about how to manage changes in sexual heat within such a relationship. It may serve you better to focus on things you can be doing to feel good *right now*.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

It was demoralizing to realize that Rick couldn't get excited to be with me - without visiting the sex club first and getting ramped up. After months of writing about all the sex we wanted - it didn't happen, pretty much at all. I was told by his words that I was beautiful, desirable and someone he wanted to explore with - - - but his actions were exactly the opposite. and after the last four years of my relationship with Jon were basically nonsexual - I do have a pent up anger and 'issue' around sexual communication with someone I'm dating or I'm in a relationship with.

I do mean to phrase things in what works for me. I am trying to become more self oriented. I mean - I admit in the posting that one of my issues is that I get into a dating or relationship and do let go of ME and MY needs in order to do what I think pleases my partner. I mean - I should have been able to say to Rick - that could we figure out ways to have hot sex on our own - rather than having to go to the sex club first. The bottom line in the end - was he was far less attracted to me than he admitted. he said that during the SF part of our relationship - that he became less and less sexually attracted to me - despite 9 months of constant fantasizing and letting each other "in" on what we thought was hot.

I am working so hard and trying to date - and find the next whateveritendsupbeing - going in trying to me much more 'me' centered rather than just subjicating my needs in order to try and make "him" happy.

[quirkstreet.livejournal.com]

I hear how hard it's been, honey. And I agree that part of what's been tough is that you've been involved with guys who lacked either insight into their own needs, or honesty with you, or both. I'm sorry about the damage that's done you. Part of what I hear is that Jon's shadow still looms over a great deal of this, that sounds as if it was really hard.

You do, definitely, "deserve" to feel beautiful and loved. When I challenge you, it's really more to make sure that you keep doing that for yourself as much as you can, because in my own experience it's been the key to accepting it from others, letting go of people from whom I wasn't getting it, and keeping it when I had it with them.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

my therapist and friends that knew me while I was with Jon - very much agree. the breakup with Rick - while shitty on it's own - amplified my feelings over the breakup with Jon. and they avalanched. but I'm regaining the reigns.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

thanks for challenging me - I know that I have trouble actually getting all this stuff OUT there in a cohesive way. You'd think as a writer I'd communicate with less of a fog at my fingertips.

[kbearblog.livejournal.com]

Well Robert from my perceptive there is a world of difference between having hot sex and having a relationship that nurtures and comforts the whole person. We are so much more then our sexual self and at times we thirst for someone just to share our inner being with.

In my romantic thinking an ideal relationship is finding what I would call a soul mate; two people that deeply care for all of the spiritual,mental,and physical needs and quirks of each others personalities. With this type of bond intense passion and sex becomes a byproduct of sharing and nurturing your deepest,innermost person and becomes of secondary importance to a relationship.

Manhunt is Hell

[walterwz.livejournal.com]

It could be worse. At this point in time, I am contemplating a move back to the NYC area. In a recent discussion with my mother, she commented, well at least you have friends there. Go figure. I moved to New England about 20 years ago. I still have friends in NY. New Hampshire and Mass are simply not happening.

I thought it was bad last time around that my last HIV test was just a formality because I could not face the fact that I was not having any sex at all. This year the same medical form has come up and this time I will simply face the fact that the HIV test is moot.

Let me see if I can summarize the Manhunt nightmare. First off I hate the pathological liar narcissists. Manhunt is fantastic if you're Bi-Married and want to have a day full of day trading. I really hate judging people but I just don't get couples who are always on the prowl. I guess if you are young and very, very hot you will do just fine. I certainly would not know this for sure. Basically if you're a guy who thinks that your best asset is your cock and you are too insecure to show your face or your body, I prefer chastity to playing that tired game.

I definitely think I reached this basic level of enlightenment as far as sex goes. Casual sex: having sex with some guy just because he's hot but otherwise you prefer never ever to see him again, makes no sense. Sex as ego compensation is a waste of time and energy.

All in all, I think you and I are on the same page as far as these issues go. I am perfectly open to different strokes for different folks but I am pretty clear about what works for me.

Sex without intimacy is meaningless. I have not met many who have a clue what this means.

[tonethbone.livejournal.com]

Re: But one of the errors I've made in dating and in my relationships - is that I tend to put (insertboyfriendhere) first - and not stand up for what I want, what I need and what I deserve.

You can NOT have love in your life ...unless you give the other person something to love.....and respect. Putting him first all the time doesn't accomplish that...at it's worst, he may feel sorry for you...but not love you. What (non physical attractiveness) qualities in another man...generate feelings of love in you?....Independence? Intensity? Warmth? These are often the same qualities he should see in you. You probably wouldnt like (for long) someone who slobbers over you and laughs at your every joke.



8. Does good sex = relationship?
Good communications about sex, needs, likes, dislikes = one part of a good relationship
and the communications needs to be ongoing...not just once every 5 years

Understanding your partners needs is very important....In my case my cubby needs a strong domineering daddy type...I dont question why (but I understand why) ....and I give that to him. But it's not a one way thing. He understand my needs too ...and gives them to me. Again..this is all part of good communications

[tonethbone.livejournal.com]

and try to find someone who is as tired as you are with the "gotta have as much sex with as many different people as possible" scene. You can NOT find love with such people...because they are not ready to love...Someday they may be...but for now they are not.

[moved.livejournal.com]

I'm jaded as hell and therefore quite single since I don't bother to look.

I've got a friend/fuckbud of 5+ years and that and a taste of the strange on occasion tends to keep me under control. I'm half interested in this guy from Seattle but who knows if that'll go anywhere.

I'm on the other end of it . . .

[danibearess.livejournal.com]

.
I feel like I'm lucky to have found a couple of local playpartners who aren't going to fall in love with me. I don't want to have to deal with expectations I won't be able to fulfill. My heart is not in the game, but I still need community, some touch, and I want to keep my skill set up. Just because I'm not going to have a primary relationship with anyone else doesn't mean I can't have mentoring and other secondary relationships with folks and get my skin needs taken care of (and my self confidence exercised).

that (taking care of me first) SpencerBear

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm not reading closely enough but - I still see you talking about these abstract ideals about what love should be, what you are looking for in a partner, etc etc which are all great. But I still don't see - here is my list of 10 things I want for myself. Plain and simple and not phrased in terms of what someone else does or doesn't do. It makes me worry that at some level you don't feel you have the right to want things. I certainly know how that feels so perhaps it's just projection?

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

as I said in the post - I'm learning to ask for things - but am admitting that I have historically subjigated my feelings for the sake of others. I am learning to stand up and ASK for what I need. and be honest about what I won't accept as well. I'm working hard to relearn things and let go of previous behaviors.

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

do you think a list is too simplistic?

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

no. but its hard to come up with a list of what I want - without it including a partner/lover in my life. that is something I want for ME.

[bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com]

I think the above is at least a start ... #12, I want a sex partner who will respect me. etc. - which IS about you and what you want.

[low-fat-muffin.livejournal.com]

I know you are in my corner. I enjoy our friendship and our conversations. :) and of course, anytime someone visits I tell them about your photography up in my home. :)

[abearius.livejournal.com]

I wish Lyle had said that.

He will, Darling. He will!